Episode 421 - Brian Boero, Co-Founder 1000watt

There was nobody at the time really thinking creatively or about storytelling or brand building in real estate.

That territory remained unclaimed.

And so we went out and we staked that as our territory.

And over time we added people slowly and we got bigger and bigger projects and clients and accounts and we became known for that.

You're listening to the Real Estate Sessions and I'm your host, Bill risser.

With nearly 25 years in the real estate business, I love to interview industry leaders, up and comers and really anyone with a story to tell.

It's the stories that led my guests to a career in the real estate world that drives me in my 10th year and over 400 episodes of the podcast.

And now I hope you enjoy the next journey.

Hi everybody.

Welcome to episode 421 of the Real Estate Sessions.

421, wow.

It's a lot of sessions.

Thank you so much for tuning in.

Thank you so much for telling a friend.

And I am always excited when I'm recording an episode, but it goes to a new level here.

This is somebody I've wanted to interview literally for years and years.

I'm a huge fan of seeing him speak at any conference and, and I've also interviewed a couple of his colleagues at the same company he's at that he co founded with one of them and Jessica Sweezy's there, of course.

The one he co founded with is Mark Davison.

So I think you know who I'm talking about by now.

I'm talking about Brian Boro and I, this is going to be so much fun.

In fact, one of my colleagues at Fidelity is a massive fan of Thousand Watt and Brian and she crafted a few questions that I'm going to insert into the episode as we move along.

I that Brian's ready for that.

I think he is.

Let's get this going.

Brian, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks, Bill.

Thank you for having me.

Oh, look, I, I said it in the intro.

I've.

It's been years and years I've wanted you on the podcast.

I've seen you speak at many events.

I was a ambassador for Inman for like a 10 year span with guys like Sean Carpenter and you know, Jay Thompson a little bit.

So it's been great to see really, just just to watch Thousand Watt grow from that little startup, I guess we could call it in 2007.

It was just it.

Very cool.

Thank you.

And yeah, that's what everybody always says.

Well, I see you on stage and I say, well, you know, honestly, I'm More comfortable on stage than I am offstage.

We'll pretend this is a stage.

That's good.

Yeah.

Okay.

Terrific.

So you live in Oakland, in the Oakland area.

Is that true?

I live in Oakland, California.

Awesome.

Born and raised here.

Wow.

So born and raised.

I was born and raised in San Diego.

Lived there for almost 40 years.

We lived in to the same state, but they are completely different.

They are different.

And, you know, I always say that the only place in the United States with a better climate than Oakland is San Diego.

So I.

I acknowledge San Diego's preeminence in terms of weather.

Your winters are just a bit chillier than ours.

That's really the biggest difference.

I think it's not much more than that.

A little bit.

Yeah.

I mean, it's.

Right now I'm looking out the window and we have typical summer fog.

But that's the worst of it here.

Yeah.

I've been to San Francisco many times.

Oakland a couple times, actually.

I saw the Blue Jays and the A's playing a playoff game back in the early 90s.

Oh, yeah.

So are you a fan of all the Oakland teams?

No, because they all left, Bill.

They're gone.

Were you a fan of all the Oakland teams?

I was never a basketball fan, but I grew up loving the Raiders until I was 11 years old.

And they left and broke my heart.

And I've rooted against them ever since.

And the A's moved to Sacramento.

I mean, this poor Oakland.

It's hard to keep a franchise going when there's not ownership that kind of cares in a certain way.

And for whatever reason, Al Davis and Mark Davis kind of cared.

They came back, but it wasn't the same.

They did, and they destroyed that.

They destroyed anything that was good about the open Coliseum for baseball and then left again.

So, you know, whatever.

Forget the Raider.

We're gonna stop.

We'll stop talking.

I wish them the worst.

Well, so do I wish the Chargers the worst.

They left San Diego.

Why would I support anything Spanos's family does?

I'm sorry.

You're very spiteful.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

Give me.

Give.

I ask this question a lot, but I think it's kind of fun.

What's the biggest misconception about.

We'll say even East Bay.

About the East Bay?

Well, look, I mean, I'm aware that Oakland is known for very little.

That.

That's good, honestly.

It's known for, you know, at this point, losing all of its sports teams.

And it's known for being high in crime and just kind of the appendix To San Francisco, you know, which isn't great.

It's an underrated city.

But, you know, the city has a lot of problems.

But I'm going to stay because I love it.

One of the greatest things is we have an enormous, enormous wildlife area and urban forest as part of the city of Oakland.

And there are redwood trees and miles and miles and miles of trails.

So five minutes from my house, I can be in a redwood forest and take a walk after work.

And that's part of the East Bay because it extends from Oakland into Berkeley, all of those hills, and then eastward is just a vast open space.

That's just marvelous.

So that's something most people don't know about the East Bay.

Yeah, I think that's true.

I, I've, I've been there a couple times.

I've been to San Ramon, which is around one of the ridges.

It's kind of like, yeah, then, but you, you can just keep going and going.

Obviously.

Very cool.

You know, I do a little bit of research.

It's not hard to do research anymore with, with LinkedIn.

I love LinkedIn.

Who doesn't?

But you are.

You're a duck.

You're a.

You went to the University of Oregon for undergrad.

Yeah.

And what brought you up there?

I'm always curious, was it the get away from the parents thing?

Like a lot of people say, nobody's ever asked me these questions in professional setting.

And I thought, no, no, it's all good, it's all good.

But when I hear these types of things, people try to burnish their history.

And I'll try to be honest about it.

Meaning the reason I went to the University of Oregon, now this is the late 80s, and I went to a Catholic high school.

It was an all boys Catholic high school.

And the really good students, they gave you the application to the University of California system.

Right.

And if you were a middling student, which I was, they gave you an application to the California State University system.

And I could, I wasn't a good enough student to get into any of the University of California schools.

And then none of the state schools appealed to me.

So for some reason somebody said, well, why don't you try the University of Oregon?

It's a great college town, blah, blah, blah.

So I applied there and I got in.

That was, that was the beginning and end of, was a tremendous place to go to school.

I loved it and I had the time of my life.

And back then it was really cheap.

So, yeah, it was terrific.

I kind of ended up there just by Accident.

I've been to that campus, too.

It is unbelievable.

Beautiful.

And Dan Fouts was a Duck.

So we're all still thinking about that.

Down in San Diego.

You're right about that.

Oh, yeah.

So that's always.

I'll always work the sports in whenever I can.

Yeah.

But then, but then you, you, you decide, you know what, I'm going to show that UC system that I can get something out of them.

And you end up going to UC Davis, which is just north of where you're at.

Right.

Or just east, I should say.

And.

And another beautiful campus once again.

It's very cool.

I think.

I actually went to UC Davis for 1/4 as an 18 year old and couldn't handle it.

Couldn't handle the missing home and actually went back home.

Okay, let's say you.

Yeah, okay, you're familiar with the.

Love it.

I love it.

And I have one question for you about that, because this, when I was there, they were the Aggies, right?

Yeah.

And they're not the Aggies anymore, they're the Mustangs.

What's going on at UC Davis, Brian?

Can you clue me in on that?

I don't really know.

Honestly.

By the time I was in graduate school, I didn't really.

And you know, Davis, I think It's a Division 2 or 3 school.

Athletically, I didn't really pay much.

I'm not even sure I ever understood what an Aggie was.

And maybe that was why they changed it to the Mustangs.

Like we all understand what a Mustang is.

Yeah, true.

Right.

I think agricultural school.

Right.

I think that was the whole thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It started out really as an agricultural school, so, yeah, maybe that was it.

But, yeah, as opposed to Oregon, where, you know, it was a big deal to go to the football games on Sundays.

Right.

University of California, Davis, not so much.

Yeah.

You come out of there with degrees in political science.

Yeah.

I'm guessing marketing.

Starting a marketing firm or consultancy was nowhere on your radar.

Yeah, you know, there's some people that plan it out and there are some people who don't.

And I'm in the latter category.

So I had the notion early on that I wanted to be in politics.

And I worked a bunch of campaigns.

I worked in the Oregon legislature when I was up there as an undergraduate.

And I really liked it.

And so I thought, well, you know, I particularly was interested in kind of the minutiae of legislative politics.

I was in the contemporary Democratic theory, which sounds incredibly esoteric, but within it was.

So I'm like, okay, I'M going to go work campaigns in California and get my master's degree in political science.

And so that's what I did.

And I have a master's degree in political science from the University of California, Davis.

If you ever want to talk about John Locke or Thomas Hobbes, I can do that, but that's about it.

I met my wife in graduate school, which was the best thing about it.

Best thing about UC Davis right there.

That's great.

Exactly.

What was the first job out of school?

Right.

I know we're going to get you to Inman here shortly, which is really interesting, but what were you doing first?

Well, I was bouncing from campaign to campaign, so political campaign.

So in the state of California, we have a lot of initiatives, right?

Like ballot initiatives, direct democracy.

And I worked on two or three of those.

I worked in a couple of mayoral campaigns.

And so that was kind of what I was doing.

I was a political journeyman, campaign journeyman.

And at the same time, I was teaching assistant during graduate school.

So that's how I paid my rent.

And what I found out, and this is, you know, shocker here, that the people in politics, I didn't find them particularly admirable.

And I got very jaded very quickly.

So that made me question my desire to make that a career.

I like the honesty and the straightforwardness of that answer.

Yeah.

So somehow you get connected with Brad Inman.

And I really want to hear the story of you the first time you said hello and met Mark Davison.

I didn't ask Mark that question when I had him on the podcast of meeting you, but I want to hear that story as well.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I met Brad.

Well, no, I had known Brad for some time.

My youngest brother went to school with Brad Inman's son.

Okay.

So I knew Brad just through family connections.

Okay.

I didn't see a great deal of him, but Brad, in his earlier, earliest journalistic days, was a reporter for the LA Times, did work in Sacramento, a lot of political reporting.

And so, you know, I'm a young kid trying to, like, network my way around.

And so I ended up talking to Brad because he knew people in politics and blah, blah, blah in Sacramento, which is 10 minutes from Davis.

So anyway, I kind of reconnected with Brad that way.

And then around the time I was becoming disillusioned with politics entirely, he was starting Inman News, basically standing up a website and becoming a trade publication for the real estate industry.

And, yeah, he offered me a job.

And so that's.

I ended up in real estate.

That's 28 years ago.

Now, many, many stories are similar.

That seems like you just kind of trip into real estate, but once you get there, it can hold you.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

So Mark Davison, how does he enter the picture?

Oh, gosh.

So I had worked at Inman for a few years and, you know, we syndicated real estate content online and in newspapers.

They used to be, as, you know, Bill, the Sunday newspaper, most major metros, had a real estate section that was actually significant.

Right.

And it was fueled by advertising.

And so we, we licensed editorial content of those papers.

Still at Inman, that was part of the business.

And we had noticed that this guy Davison, who kept coming up because he was representing this home inspector that had a real estate column, and he was getting this guy in all of the Sunday real estate sections.

And so, you know, we reached out to him just to figure out what this guy was doing, and that's how we became acquainted.

And I remember the first time I met Mark was probably maybe 99, 2000 somewhere in there.

And he showed up at the Inman office, and he was still very much a creature of the music business.

You know, I know you've had Mark on the show and, you know, that's.

He started an artist representation and was really a person who operated in that space.

And then, you know, again, another sort of unplanned thing, ended up representing this real estate columnist kind of on a whim.

So anyway, yeah, he walked in and he was still very much a creature of the music business.

He didn't look like anybody you would encounter in real estate.

And.

Yeah, so Mark has been a.

A friend and a partner for a long, long time.

You worked together at Inman for a few more years?

Yeah, I think.

I think he had a little interlude with some other things.

But I really want to get to the question that you've been asked more times than you.

You care to tell us, but launching Thousand Watt, the idea behind Thousand Watt, what were others doing at that time?

That they're probably still not doing that you do.

But if you can kind of talk about what was your competition?

Was there competition when you launched that, or was it kind of a new thing where people said, oh, wow, what are they doing?

I'll be very honest about it.

And this, like anything else, you know, that I've said is a Thousand Watt was born out of circumstance.

And after I left Inman, I was president of Inman for a while.

I was there at Inman for eight years.

And so after I left Inman, Mark had left a year or two before me.

I had then gone to this startup that a CEO that developed software for tablet PCs.

I don't know if anybody remembers those things, but it's like a laptop that you can write on and it was pretty cool back in the day.

This is before the iPhone, of course.

Yeah, of course.

And ran that for a couple years and it did really well.

And then the housing crash happened and it started to not do well.

So that basically we sold off the code base and the assets to companies in other categories.

And then Mark and I were like, okay, what do we do now?

And you know, sometimes people at that moment say, well, I'm going to do some consulting for a while.

So I said, okay, let's just do some consulting together and we'll start a consulting firm and we'll call it Thousand Watt Consulting.

And that's really how it started and what built the business from there.

And the brand was really just writing publicly.

And you know, we, we started a blog that was the early days of blogging and we would write things that other people wouldn't write, we would say things that other people wouldn't say.

And we had a distinctive voice and point of view and that proved to be pretty magnetic for a certain number of people in the industry.

And that act of writing and just sharing a point of view publicly through the blog is what built Thousand Watt.

How long before you kind of became known as the, I mean, Look, I've seen 50, 60, 70 of your pieces of art, I'll call them, which is what you help a brokerage do.

How long did it take for you to get to that?

Not to the level you're at today, but to go, oh, this is a path I think we should be going down.

Yeah, I, we're an 18 year overnight success, I guess.

Right.

There was nobody at the time really thinking creatively or about storytelling or brand building and real estate.

That territory remained unclaimed.

And so we went out and we staked that as our territory.

And over time we added people slowly and we got bigger and bigger projects and clients and accounts and we became known for that.

And Mark's passion really is branding, the thinking that goes into that design.

And that became, I think, the most commonly known output of our company.

But we have always also done a lot that is less easy to see visually, which is strategy, message strategy, positioning a company or a product brand strategy, storytelling, all of those things.

And that really was my bailiwick.

And so Mark is very passionate about visual design and brand building.

I really always gravitated towards messaging positioning the strategy.

I would imagine, especially since this was kind of relatively new in the world of we'll say brokerage, that you had to convince some people, like I'm going to insert one of Jordan's questions here because I think she's amazing.

And how do you cultivate bravery in clients who are used to just kind of playing it safe with their brand?

I mean that's a, that had to be a big problem early on or at least an issue, I should say.

Well, it's become easier over time because as I think our clients courage to make changes or take risks increases proportional to our credibility.

So right, if, if, if, if a client hires us to do some work and they know that we have a track record and a reputation and we're not going to give them a bum steer or run them off a cliff, right.

That enables them to take some risks and to have a greater confidence.

And the other thing I would say that is important to that is process.

A tagline, an advertising campaign, messaging strategy.

You know, those things don't come out of thin air.

They're the output of a process.

And we become very good at the processes that lead to good outcomes.

And so if a client is taken through that process, the process gives them the confidence and the assurance that everything is being thought through methodically.

And that's been very helpful.

You know, sometimes people look at design work in particular and they say, well, that's pretty, that that makes me feel good or I don't like that.

And design really is not just about making pretty things.

It is the culmination of a number of deeply considered factors and strategic decisions.

And when you take the client through that process, they become more confident.

When somebody approaches you and says we want to do something different to the moment that they lay eyes on the first, you know, the final iteration of what you're creating.

How long is that process?

Because I'm just guessing this is not something that happens quickly.

No, it took a few months really for everything that we have come to know.

Certainly me and Mark and Jessica on our team, who you've interviewed viewed as well, who's I've known for over 20 years and has been with thousand watt for over a dozen years.

So we have tons of domain knowledge.

But we still have to understand what is true about the client.

And that could be a brokerage, it could be a proptech company, it could be a mortgage company.

We work with all builders.

We have to like really figure out what is uniquely true about that company and that brand.

And so that still requires what we call discovery, which is research.

And we talk to people, we interview people, we workshop things.

And that's a big part of it.

We just don't shoot from the hip.

Yeah.

It's not like it's one of these four things because everyone fits into these four things.

That's not the truth.

No, it's not.

And well, it's a good facet to this Bill.

And with real estate brokerage in particular, for the most part, they're not differentiated what makes company X different from company Y.

I don't know.

If you kind of squint, they sort of look the same.

So what we need to do is to figure out, okay, well, what is beneath the surface there that is true that you can build something off of, whether that's visual or verbal.

Yeah.

Brian, once again, another Jordan insert.

Yeah.

What's the biggest myth in real estate marketing today and what's the truth behind it?

What is the big.

That's a really good question.

The biggest myth in real estate marketing today, I think want to give you a thoughtful answer here.

The biggest myth in real estate marketing.

Well, I think there's a misunderstanding, I'll put it that way.

There's a great misunderstanding between brand marketing and direct response or tactical marketing.

And I think that the real estate industry, because the mentality is so tied to sort of this deal to deal horizon, right?

You get one lead, you convert it, you do one closing, you move on, right?

You have one quarter's results, then you're at the bottom of the hill for the next quarter.

And we very much focus on that which gets immediate engagement, conversion attention.

And we do not build the strategy that should sit beneath and come before those things, if that makes sense.

So the misconception is that attention for the sake of intention is intrinsically good and effective in real estate marketing.

I think we see a lot of that.

We wrote about that just the other day in our ghost newsletter where, you know, we highlighted this growing trend of agents who are using humor and dancing and sometimes off color human humor to gain attention in their marketing.

And it works.

They get thousands and thousands of followers.

And whether or not that produces business or whether or not that builds a brand over time I think is an open question right now.

So her, her final, her follow up with the truth behind it is that those things do work.

It's just they're not, they're not building something that's going to grow and grow and continue to become this brand that's going to Be very, you know, important.

I mean, sometimes I use the analogy of food analogy.

Right.

So like you can live off of candy bars and Red Bull for a period of time and it will produce an immediate satisfaction or response over time though it does not build a strong body or mind.

Right.

That's the equivalent of attention grabbing, non strategic, gratuitous shoot from the hip marketing.

Yeah, of course.

What you want to be doing is you want to nourish your business and brand, you know, with a more balanced diet that builds strength and health and wellness over time.

Okay.

So that's how you build endurance and longevity and health and, and you know, understandably, most agents in particular, you know, gravitate towards the, the quick, the quick hit.

I'll ask you a another Jordan question.

I love this question.

It's the first time I've ever seen anything close to this.

But if you approach real estate marketing like an anthropologist, right.

Studying a culture, are there patterns or rituals you would say that define today's agent or consumer?

And, and if so, are they evolving?

Are they evolving?

I think the state of the industry is such that agents are mostly stressed, anxious, confused, and they're looking for guidance and they're looking for something to hang onto.

And I don't know what pattern is emerging from that.

The pattern is stress.

It really is.

And for all the reasons that you know, Bill and all of your listeners know, we have too few deals and too many agents chasing them.

We have consolidation and hyper competition in the industry, we have all kinds of fighting within the industry and then we have this daily unfolding reality of AI.

And I think agents are just trying to get their bearings right now and trying to pay the bills.

It's hard to say what the emerging patterns are with agents, with consumers, and we've done a lot of research with consumers over the last four or five years.

Consumers are similarly confused.

And this is the paradox of consumer behavior.

Over the last 25 years we have more and more information.

We have all the listings, we have all the sale prices, we have all the data in the palm of our hand.

But yet most of us are still completely lost when it comes time to actually sell or buy a house.

And we thought many of us did that the lawsuit settlements and all that last year would sort of clarify things and consumers would be more discerning and they would know how their buyer agent got paid and all that.

Like, you know, you can, you can spend days on end on Redfin or Zillow and look at all the comps and those estimates and you can use chat GPT to tell you how to buy a house or, you know, and it's funny how people still arrive unprepared and needing guidance when it comes time to actually move into real estate transaction mode.

So I guess a lot less has changed there with consumer behavior than I think people sometimes think.

Yeah.

It hasn't been that solution it was supposed to be, I think.

Yeah.

And an agent still on their side of the thing still continue to try to figure out the proper way to educate those consumers.

Yeah.

I have to talk about your summit, right?

Yeah.

This is pretty cool.

It's not really a typical real estate event.

I've been to many of them.

You've been to more.

Yeah.

But if there's one feeling or takeaway that you purposely built into the summit, right into that, what would that be?

What's the entire experience about?

The entire experience about is about delivering the signal through the noise that exists in the industry, particularly around marketing, brand building, and giving people clarity around those things.

Because again, particularly with the effects of AI, people don't know what to do.

Right.

So how do I find the signal through all of the noise that surrounds me?

Do this, do that, buy this, buy that.

Here's the script you need.

Here's the magic email to send.

Here's the application.

Here's what you should be doing with AI.

AI is going to destroy your company.

AI is going to grow your company.

It's a lot of static and noise, Bill.

And we created the event which we have, we are announcing, we're renaming it Signal, called it the Brand and Marketing Summit, but we're renaming it Signal for that reason.

And so we want people to feel like they can come here and get really thoughtful discussion and strategic thinking and creative thinking that helps them build their brand and their business.

So that's the idea.

Yeah.

Where do you personally go to get re inspired creatively?

You know, like when you feel like you've hit a wall.

What.

What's Brian doing?

I read a lot of fiction.

I read a lot.

And is there a genre that you gravitate towards?

Well, you know, I like short stories a lot.

Okay.

I read a lot of novels.

I read some history and biography.

But I have always found, you know, your output, your output intellectually and creatively is tightly correlated with the inputs you put into your brain.

And when I'm stuck for an idea, that's what does it for me.

Bill.

Everybody's different.

I don't like business books.

I've read very few of them.

Most of them are overblown blog posts.

So, yeah, I read a lot of fiction.

Is there one you've read multiple times?

Like, it just.

You keep coming back to it because of something that's happening in that book.

I have one myself, but I'd like to hear yours.

Yeah, I mean, look, I have my favorite writers, though she was known primarily for her journalism and her nonfiction.

Joan Gideon is my favorite writer, and she wrote a couple of novels that I go back to again and again.

I probably read them every couple of years, and I don't know.

I don't know why.

They just always leave me thinking.

The other novel that I reread, I reread this every couple of years, too, is the Great Gatsby.

And of course, like most of your listeners, you read it in high school or college.

You know, there's Tom and Daisy and Nick, and, you know, you kind of get the idea, but I just never cease to find wonders in the language and the writing and insights about our American culture by rereading that book.

So that sounds really nerdy, but that's what I do.

That's how I recharge my creative battery.

I love that.

I would think.

But yeah, it probably, absolutely has helped you in your business, you know?

Yeah.

Like, I mean, you can't.

You are not, probably not going to be successful as a strategist or a creative.

If your intellectual diet is Instagram Reels and LinkedIn, it's unlikely.

If it's SportsCenter, will that work?

No.

Yeah.

Sports Center 100.

Totally.

Okay, good.

I mean, there's some great.

There's some great.

You know, there's.

There's great writing around sports.

Oh, my gosh.

Are you kidding me?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Lots of great novels tied around sports stuff for sure, starting with Field of Dreams, but I'll move on.

Yeah.

Okay, here.

Well, I'm running out of your time, so I want to get you this last question, but I've asked everyone.

Jay Thompson was my first guest when I was going to do 10 episodes, because I wanted to see what a podcast was all about in 2015.

Jade's such a great guy.

He is.

He's having the time of his life.

He's having too much fun.

What one piece of advice would you give a new agent?

Just getting started in real estate.

You know, I would tell them to.

To be deliberately different.

And I know that's hard because I always say, this is a look around business with agents.

You know, they look around and they say, who's the big dog in my office?

And I need to do what they're doing or you know, this team is just killing it doing X, Y or Z for their marketing.

So I got to do that.

You know, those are the things that work for other people.

And so agents get sort of jerked around and doing things that other people do by looking around, which I understand because, you know, as I said before, it's a scary and anxious time in real estate.

I would say look really deeply at what you can do best and what you are prepared to do better than most other agents and then build off of that and look around you and then figure out how you can do something different given your unique makeup, your point of view, your personality.

So look inward, not around, I guess would be my guidance.

Which is hard.

Yeah, it is.

But that's great advice, Ryan.

If somebody wants to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to do that?

And also how do they get a hold of the dose?

Right.

What's the.

Yeah, because I'm.

Yeah, people can email me, Brian.

Net.

Best way to like get more Thousand Watt for free.

Yeah.

Is sign up for our weekly newsletter, the Dose.

Just go to our website, thousand watt dot net.

You'll probably get a pop up or something to sign up.

Goes out every Tuesday morning and it's kind of a hit on hey, here's what's going on in the industry, but mostly just food for creative and strategic thinking.

Yeah.

I'm like a raving fanboy of copywriters.

I think the ability to put pen to paper, we'll go old school and have people do things or react or think another thought is unbelievable.

So I think it's great.

Yeah.

Talking to you and Mark and Jessica especially.

It's just been fantastic.

Thank you so much for your time.

Yeah, it's been great.

And I'm always, always looking forward to the next thing that Thousand Watts is going to be talking about.

So thank you so much for your time today.

Oh, thank you, Bill.

It was a pleasure.